Tibet... is discussion possible?

The Chinese system of Internet censorship and media propaganda  may have a lot of holes, but when tested by events like the Tibet unrest this past week, so far it's holding up well enough for the regime's purposes.

For those living in the West who didn't realize that there's little sympathy for Tibet independence among ethnic Chinese in the PRC, this blog post on Global Voices will be a shocker. John Kennedy has translated chatter from Chinese blogs and chatrooms that generally runs along the lines of: those ungrateful minorities, we give them modern conveniences and look how they thank us... where have we heard this before? Reuters has a roundup on the Washington Post that begins: "a look at Chinese blogs reveals a vitriolic outpouring of anger and nationalism directed against Tibetans and the West."

Of course, pretty much anything presenting more nuanced views that don't show the Chinese government actions in a good light are censored anyway. YouTube is of course blocked again. Bloggers are reporting that many BBS and chat channels are being closed or cracked down upon, and that mobile SMS's coming from or about Tibet are being heavily filtered.

"Davesgonechina" at the Tenement Palm blog has been translating the chatter coming from Chinese netizens on Fanfou and Jiwai - Chinese versions of Twitter. Click here, here, and here, specifically.

Dave has done more than translate: he points out that this Tibet situation is a real challenge to all people who believe that the Internet can help foster free speech and bring about better global understanding.  Here is his challenge to all of us:

I've argued, citing the words of the Dalai Lama himself, that if you

1) Believe in democratic principles and free speech
2) You believe the Internet is a tool for unfettered global communication
3) There's something in China (or any other country) that bothers you

Then you ought to put some energy into communicating directly with Chinese netizens about the problem. For years now I've seen alot of Chinese netizens discussions be completely ignored or simply missed by English-speaking netizens, who too often think that Chinese netizens are all completely brainwashed. Well, guess what? Some of them think you are too. Instead of dismissing each other as fools, how about we try to talk? So I say, Tweet Back! Tweet in English, alot of Chinese people know some. If you know Chinese... what are you waiting for?

He goes on to propose some specific ways to engage Chinese people in discussion of the Tibet issue, starting by signing up for accounts on a Chinese version of Twitter, Fanfou. In an earlier post he writes:

This is the perfect opportunity for Tibet internet activists like Oxblood Ruffin and concerned netizens everywhere to engage Chinese people on the Internet in discussions about what is going on. As I previously outlined in a primer to engage Chinese people, these are channels where one can register a free account and launch dialogues with Chinese individuals about Tibet. Many of the people I've included below are neither kneejerk nationalists or xenophobes, and some of them know some English too. It wouldn't hurt to try. You can respond by clicking on the username link at the beginning of each tweet, sign up, and talk back.

Dave also makes an astute observation that the East-West miscommunication madness is here to stay - and likely to get worse - between now and the Olympics. In a post titled SchizOlympics he reflects the feelings I share, and why I've not been looking forward to August:

Watching the build up to the Olympics has been, for me, like watching the world's biggest, slowest traffic accident. For a while now its been pretty obvious that alot of contentious issues about China were going to come to the front as we approach August 8th, but the problem is that there are two completely separate parallel worlds on these issues: the Chinese one, and the rest of us. Westerners have been exposed to rhetoric and information about Tibetan discontent, Darfur's international and Chinese dimensions, and of course old chestnuts like Tiananmen provide a larger context of long term, ongoing problems. Meanwhile, Chinese mainlanders by and large have no knowledge of these events or issues. While for the rest of the world the Olympics will be largely a referendum on China's ability to deal with what everyone else has talked about for years, for Chinese citizens it will be about China winning a beauty pageant of sorts.

Two Worlds, Two Dreams: prepare for the SchizOlympics.

Are we ready?

Meanwhile, here are some other online must-reads from the past couple of days:

• The China Digital Times has been doing a fabulous job of aggregating both professional and amateur reports from Tibet. Here is a collection of mobile phone photos they linked to, for instance.
• Roland Soong translates a first-hand account from a Chinese person in Lhasa. He also has a long update today including links to contrasting YouTube videos that paint different pictures of what's happening.
• Will at Imagethief has some astute observations about how Chinese government messages that work well on domestic audiences often don't work well on foreigners, but he points out that the Chinese official communications strategy is getting more sophisticated.

As Roland also points out, romantic fantasies and propaganda about Tibet aren't exclusive to any one side. Perhaps it's time to go re-read Orville Schell's book Virtual Tibet.

Comments

[clarke]

Good question - of course, the answer should be yes, but this rubbish about both sides being equally partisan makes it impossible. If you believe this then you've swallowed the communist party's position. For them obfuscation always benefits their claim to establishing clarity and order.

What's happening in Tibet and Gansu is an overdue response to Beijing's attempts to commit cultural genocide. Beijing has a small window to save themselves a major problem - engage with the Tibetan exiled leadership, bring them into the political process. If they don't then this new generation will have no choice but to revert to more violence....perhaps terrorism.

Another excellent book on Tibet is Mary Craig's "Tears of Blood"

[Chuck Pelto]

TO: Rebecca MacKinnon
RE: Discussion! Possible?

"Tibet... is discussion possible?" -- Rebecca MacKinnon

Sure.

But not WITH the Communist Chinese. Otherwise, given the opportunity, they'll beat the living stuffings out of you....if not outright kill you. But...hey...that's the way they do 'government'. It's their MO. And, whomever accepts it is culpable.

On the other hand, there are other venues where this atrocity can be addressed. For instance the International Olympic Committee (IOC).

It's a crying shame that they've sunk to the level of the Nobel Prize crew; honoring mass murderers, i.e., Arafat.

So. I suggest we address the IOC, as we cannot impact on the Communist dictators of China. But we CAN impact the IOC.

BOYCOT!

Regards,

Chuck(le)
[Silence is affirmation. -- English Common Law]

[Charles Liu]

Believe me, a quick servey of what the self appointed expat China experts are saying will prove a simple truth - most y'all "ma'sas" are only interested in bashing China and denigrate a billion people, while ignoring the blood soaked land we are standin on.

We ain't interested in talking to the Chinese.

If we do, perhaps we will have a real conversation about our own transgressions, our own physical/cultural genocide.

Show me one Tibet blogger that blogged with the same "enthusiasm" when the last native speaker of Eyak died.

Show me one Tibet blogger that holds ourselves to the same standards that we impose on the Chinese.

I once asked if it's okay to put the Tibetans in reservations like we do with the Native Americans(Tibet SAR as one contiguous territory).

I never got an answer.

[clarence chen]

What is there to discuss? These riots are obviously orchestrated by the Dalai Lama. He is an opportunist who took the same tack in 1959 and 1989.

I cannot see any discuss to take place before calm returns to the streets of Tibet. And you certainly cannot expect that to happen before a stop to the looting, burning of Han, Muslim shops.

Serfdom for Tibet!

[lou]

Why Dalai Lama didn't call the stop of the violence and the killing and beating of innocent Han People immediately?

Could worthy ends justify any means? If that is the case, why should we blast any terrorist attacks?

As a spirit leader, "I cannot ask people not to do this, not to do that" is simply not good enough.

This is an interesint eyewitness account on the Garudian webiste:

Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/15/tibet.china2

"The residents are very angry. They are throwing stones at anyone who is Han [Chinese] or from other minorities like the Hui, who are Muslims. It seems like it's ethnic - like they want to kill anyone not Tibetan."
...
"I saw three people assaulting a man - I was 50 metres away, but I think he was Chinese. They kicked him and then one man had a knife and used it. He was lying on the floor and the man put the knife in his back, like he wanted to see he was dead.
"I had to get away, there were people throwing stones.
"When I came back he was gone - I don't know if he's dead. Then I saw people who had obviously been beaten or stoned. There wasn't blood on them but they were so shocked.
"This area used to be a place where Tibetans and the Chinese were friendly.

[barnychan]

"Tibet... is discussion possible?"

No, not in any meaningful way at the present time.

Maybe when a little bit of financial reality bites some of the current nationalistic frenzy might abate and make the beginnings of genuine dialogue a possibility. Sadly, until that point, any attempt at engagement merely serves to fuel the already insane levels of Chinese xenophobia.

[mahathir_fan]

Hang on...you expect to have a rational discussion with someone who thinks that he is the reincarnation of a religious god called the Dalai Lama?

When the gets back down to earth and admits that he is human like the rest of us, then maybe we can have a chance for some dicussion.

For if he is the Dalai Lama, then I must be the reincarnation of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

[mahathir_fan]

How true observation about the Olympics, the differing viewpoints of both the Western world and the Chinese world.

However, a sentence worth pondering is - "Two Worlds, Two Dreams" is that true?

The West may not like China, but China still have friends in Africa, Asia and Latin America.

I would hope that the West would boycott the Olympics as well as Made in China products.

I just want to announce again to "the rest of the world" (and that means the Western world) - for the Africans, Latin Americans and other Asians don't exist- that if you don't like what is happening in Tibet, you are free to boycott the Olympics.

As a Chinese, I cannot force you to boycott. But I hope you will make the right choice and do the right thing that will make both of us happy.

[barnychan]

"I would hope that the West would boycott the Olympics as well as Made in China products...As a Chinese, I cannot force you to boycott. But I hope you will make the right choice and do the right thing that will make both of us happy."

Mahathir Fan, thanks for adding weight to my point regarding the current insane level of Chinese xenophobia.

[007]

I'M REPORTING FROM BEHIND ENEMY LINES. The OPPRESSION OF THE TIBETAN PEOPLE IS BEYOND COMPARE. There is WIDESPREAD REVOLT that has spread BEYOND TIBET.

The authorities, out of FRUSTRATION, are blaming the totally innocent Dalai Lama.

Read my stuff at
http://intelligenceinputs.blogspot.com
http://futureweapons.blogdrive.com

Wait for a few more months - THIS REVOLT'S GONNA SPREAD LIKE WILDFIRE.

[007]

I'M REPORTING FROM BEHIND ENEMY LINES. The OPPRESSION OF THE TIBETAN PEOPLE IS BEYOND COMPARE. There is WIDESPREAD REVOLT that has spread BEYOND TIBET.

The authorities, out of FRUSTRATION, are blaming the totally innocent Dalai Lama.

Read my stuff at
http://intelligenceinputs.blogspot.com
http://futureweapons.blogdrive.com

Wait for a few more months - THIS REVOLT'S GONNA SPREAD LIKE WILDFIRE.

[michael]

Despite the internet making it easier than ever to explore alternative points of view, I find there is little interest in meaningful dialogue on contentious subjects such as Tibet or Iraq. Like everyone else I come to the debate with the confident conviction that my views and my interpretation of the 'facts' are correct and that others are blinkered and biased.
Even asking the question of whether discussion is possible is to question the orthodox views held with such strong conviction by many.

[Tom - Daai Tou Laam]

Even asking the question of whether discussion is possible is to question the orthodox views held with such strong conviction by many.
Posted by: michael

The question is really how can you have a discussion under strict censorship. Perhaps a "guided conversation", but there is no way to have a two way discussion.

Evolution, as Rebecca and Roland are pimping as their latest meme for the China internet, merely rewards those best suited for the environment. If the environment is artificially managed, then the evolution will only produce life best suited for the artificially managed environment. In this case life that is best suited to wave the red flag at appropriate times and avoid having your fingers zapped for crossing the party line.

The banality of evil is hardly a new concept. It's not that hard to mould people to accept censorship as a norm. It's not that hard to mould people to accept the lethal use of state force against your fellow citizens. And provide a little fortune or fame for folks and most of 'em are quite willing to toss out their principles and previous beliefs in order to protect their new fortune and fame.

[Dara Shiko]

@ Charles Liu

Obviously you believe the Chinese Govt lies that the Dalai Lama orchestrated the violence. Open your eyes and smell the tea. Don't believe all the propoganda lies of your govt. The 'riots' are a popular expression of disgust with Han chauvinistic practices of supressing Tibet's culture with an iron fist. If you say Serfdom for Tibet then how come you villify the Japanese for invading China in the 1930's? Surely China had serfdom and was backward and superstitious then and the Japanese were perfectly right to "bring civilisation to the stupid backward Chinese."

[Charles Liu]

Dara, I am an American.

You obviousley didn't read what I wrote, else you would'be realized that.

Why is dialog not possible? R, I rest my case.

[Sir Gawain and the Green Knight]

@Dara Shiko:
Japan could not have brought civilization to the Chinese. If you know anything about history, which I doubt you do, you would know that the Japanese language and culture is "borrowed" (intellectually property violation, maybe?) from Chinese language and culture.

@the Westerners
Obviously, there are many in the West(including Japan) who wish to use Tibet as a distraction from their own human rights violations. There are many ways that China could improve its treatment of its minorities, but mudslinging China is not going to help.

Western crimes:
*The United States' genocide of the American Indian population (currently, they are 1% of the total population in the U.S.)
*The United States' discrimination of ethnic minorities
*Australia's treatment of its indigenous peoples.
*European Powers' conquest of Africa, resulting in the creation of nations by drawing them on maps.
*Let's not forget the Atlantic Slave Trade
*Biggest arms exporters: #1 USA, #2 Russia, #3 France, #4 & #5 UK & Germany
*Who carved up China? Oh yeah, it was the West who wanted an "Open door", I wonder why they hate us?
*British invasion of Tibet in the early 20th century.

[Charles Liu]

Hey R, check this out:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3568810.ece

Peaceful demonstration by Tibetean students in Beijing. Police faciliated the peaceful protest (like we do in US.)

Look Ma, no protester went ape sh!t and no police action.

[clarence chen]

@Dara Shiko

If you really believe these are random acts of violence spilled over from peaceful demonstrations, then the timing of these events are very interesting, aren't they? Months before the Olympics, and weeks before the torch relay.

You got to ask yourself who has more to gain from things getting out of hand, the Dalai goons or the Chinese government...

Serfdom for Tibet!

[sliggy b.]

The attempt to promote discussion is laudable. But China's occupation of Tibet is no different than the US occupation of Iraq. So when the US and its allies get out of Iraq, perhaps those of us Westerners who would like to see China out of Tibet will have the moral right to speak. Until then we ought to shut up or at least begin to connect the dots and get out on the streets and demand an end to the egregious actions of our governments, which are no different from those of the Chinese government.

[wgj]

@ Dara Shiko:

You should get your facts straight before dismissing others for "believing lies".

Weather or not China "surely had serfdom" in the 1930s is quite debatable, given the Republic of China had been founded in 1911.

Also it's not at all clear to me what kinds of "civilization" the Japanese invasion has brought to China. Could you provide some example of either political, social or economical improvements the Japanese have achieved -- or at least attempted -- during their occupation?

Just for the record, in case you think I'm just another brainwashed Communist zombie: I've been living in Western Europe longer than I've lived in China, and Xinhua news releases -- or other "official" news base on those releases -- constitute less than one percent of the news I read about China.

[Hayden]

I am an Australian and have spent time in China, Tibet Nepal & India over the past few years and have had contact with plenty of Tibetans and Chinese on both sides of the fence. For Tibetans outside of "China" (the TAR and other provinces that used to be a part of Tibet like qinghai & sichuan) the issue is spoken of in very much the black and white terms that we in the west do: The Dali Lama is wonderful, the Chinese government is evil.

But I was surprised at how many Tibetans within "China" support the goverment there, my assumption being this is due to the provison of infrastructure, education and healthcare in recent years. I walked into one proud tibetan's home to find a picture of Chairman Mao enshrined next to the Dali Lama's!

I think alot of this comes from the public misinformation campaign that the Chinese govt. has been running for many years now, and I find it disgusting. It really is horrifying how little Chinese citizens know about their own history.

BUT it IS a mixed issue for many Tibetans. The government has stripped and undermined local culture, but provided a higher standard of living for Tibetans. In my western arrogance I argued that this was no substitute for cultural dignity, but I have never had to go without food or water due to poverty.

Regardless of the Tibet issue, the Chinese government treats the people like sheep and should be opposed (by the Chinese). The lack of information on international issues in China is trully disturbing.

[Clarke]

In Tibet the Chinese military has been conducting house to house "searches," the foreign press and tourists are banned, Tibetans in their own land are forbidden to practice their faith, the Chinese military has been illegally harrassing people who look Tibetan on the Nepalese side of the border...yes it does resemble America in the 19th century. So that's acceptable?

Perhaps the people posting here could illuminate their positions rather than condemn the hypocrisy of others.

I'd like to hear how the Chinese communist party's actions can be defended....please, go ahead, I dare you!

[barnychan]

Let's summarise the Chinese perspective here:

"y'all "ma'sas" are only interested in bashing China and denigrate a billion people...These riots are obviously orchestrated by the Dalai Lama...Serfdom for Tibet!...the Dalai goons...Serfdom for Tibet!"

The usual mix of self-pity and xenophobic belligerence, aided and abetted in the west by naive "liberals" - whose moral compass has been sent spinning by American foreign policy - and bare knuckle capitalists gleefully eyeing up the world's most brutal market. It's time for the enlightened elements in the Chinese diaspora to start speaking out. Sadly, doing so tends to put you in the same situation as Jews brave enough and logical enough to speak out against Israeli policy - you're nothing but a "self-hater". Well, rather a self-hater than a hater of all those who challenge the barbarity of modern China.

[Twofish]

You are dealing with mostly overseas Chinese here, so that all of this "you are all brainwashed by the Communist Party" doesn't work. I personally don't trust anything that Xinhua or the People's Daily says. If Xinhua says that Tibetan demonstrators are setting things on fire. That's nice. They might be lying. They do that a lot. If the BBC, the Economist, or some French blogger in Lhasa says it, then I put a lot more credibility on them.

Clarke: I'd like to hear how the Chinese communist party's actions can be defended....please, go ahead, I dare you!

Which actions? I can't defend the general ethnic policy of the Communist Party, it's restrictions on peaceful demonstrations, and about a thousand other things it does. Yes it does deserve a lot of blame because if you put people under a pressure cooker for too long and you release the pressure just a little bit, Things explode.

The demonstrations last week started peacefully for about three days, and then something happened and things exploded.

However......

Once you start having shops burning and stones thrown, then you need to have police come in and restore order. No matter how justified the rioters are, you just can't have this sort of civil disorder continue. Yes it's a bad thing to have to flood Lhasa with police, but if you don't do it, then you end up with total anarchy, and then the amount of force that you have to apply to get things back to normal is horrible.

Also it helps a lot in discussions if people don't try to force each other into positions. If it's a situation in which you either believe 100% in Tibetan independence or you believe 100% in the Communist Party, there there really since much point in discussion since there is either "good" or "evil" and if you come in with the preconception that I'm on the "evil" side then I don't see what the point of discussing things are.

Personally I don't think that the Dalai Lama is responsible for much of what is going on in Tibet right now, but on the other hand I know a lot of Americans who think that Sadaam Hussein was responsible for 9-11, so I wouldn't characterize Chinese as particularly gullable.

One problem with the Dalai Lama is that most people in China including the government just don't trust him. He says that he wants autonomy, but don't you think that after saying all of this, if he can manage to push from autonomy to outright independence, he would?

[mahathir_fan]

The problem with the Communist government is that they are too nice.

When the Republic of China was in control, they didn't just unify Tibet - they even unified Mongolia.

The Communist government instead created this "Tibet Autonomous Region" instead of outright making it a province of China like any other province. They preserve the Tibetan language, allowing dual use of Tibetan and Mandarin in official documents. They even give Tibetans education and send them to Beijing to be educated, a lot at the expense of other Han chinese.

In China, there is reverse discrimnation. If you belong to ethnic minority, you get a better chance at entering good universities etc. etc..

What the Chinese government needs to do is to begin the assimilation process. they need to assimilate the Tibetans - just like how they assimilated my ancestors.

FYI: My ancestors are not Han Chinese. They were originally from Fujian and were Tang Chinese. Today's Tang Chinese have completely been assimilated and became Han Chinese. Tibetans need to go through the same process just like what the Tang Chinese went through.

"If Xinhua says that Tibetan demonstrators are setting things on fire. That's nice. They might be lying. They do that a lot. If the BBC, the Economist, or some French blogger in Lhasa says it, then I put a lot more credibility on them."

Please watch: http://youtube.com/watch?v=SbX0gAk3zRA

and tell me if you still think the same. Over the years, one thing I have found about the Chinese media is this:
1) They never lie. They will rather keep quiet or avoid reporting a news but they don't speculate. But when they do open their mouth, those pieces of information is very credible.