Hu Jia, Tiananmen 2.0, and the SchizOlympics

(From Global Voices: A near-blind friend of Hu Jia - later arrested herself - collects signatures for his release; close-up of the petition.)

The Olympics may be athletic competition, but this year it is also a contest of alternative realities. If you think things are strange or disturbing now, just wait.

Today Hu Jia was sentenced to three and a half years in jail plus an extra year without "political rights," found guilty of "subverting state power." His alleged "crimes" according to his lawyer involved comments made in interviews with foreign media and articles posted on Boxun.com, a Chinese-language U.S.-based website that is banned in China. Here is the official Xinhua report on his sentencing.

Hu has been under arrest since December, and under house arrest for much longer. His wife Zeng Jinyan and newborn baby have also been under effective house arrest since his formal arrest - despite the fact that neither has been charged with any crime. (The TIME blog has a video of their recent attempt to visit Zeng... crime scene tape was deployed outside the entrance to her building.) The small but vocal politically-edgy part of the Chinese blogosphere has for months been rallying in support of Hu and Zeng. There have been online and offline petitions calling for Hu's release. After several bloggers were blocked by police from delivering milk powder to Zeng and the baby, one guy who clearly plays a lot of video games or something finally succeeded after a thoroughly planned overnight  commando-style "mission" (Read John Kennedy's translation of the blogger's account of how he got around the cops.. titled "Hack Into Freedom City"... it's quite something).

If you search for Hu Jia's Chinese name on Baidu, China's largest search engine, all you'll get is information about an Olympic diver who happens to have the same name.  But as John Kennedy writes on Global Voices, "in the China of today, though, someone like Hu Jia just doesn't quietly disappear." Websites hosted overseas that talk about Hu Jia the activist may be blocked by the Great Firewall; blog and chatroom postings about him posted on websites inside China are taken down by administrators on orders from above; but that hasn't stopped many people from sending around links to the BBC Chinese-language report on his sentencing through their Twitter and instant messaging networks, and e-mail threads between trusted friends. The way that Zeng continues to speak out from her house arrest, and the way that people continue to support her online, is what some are now calling "Tiananmen 2.0" - a phrase which Ariana Huffington coined in her 2007 piece about Zeng for TIME magazine, and which is now the title of a cyber-activist blog.

Among the things Hu Jia wrote that authorities didn't like was criticism of the International Olympic Committee for not pushing Beijing to live up to its human rights commitments. (Mind you, he never called for a boycott or said he opposed the Olympics, contrary to what some people on the internet have been claiming.) Human rights groups like Amnesty International, which just came out with a well-timed report about all the ways in which Beijing has falied to live up to its Olympic committments, have been quick to point out that Hu's conviction is an example of Beijing's failings in the human rights department. The head of the Prague-based Olympic Watch said: “The Chinese government is ignoring its commitments of human rights improvements and testing how far it can go just as IOC executives head to Beijing.”

The IOC for its part made a big show of securing guarantees from Chinese authorities that the Internet will be "open" for journalists in the special Olympic coverage press centers. English-language Wikipedia and BBC English have been unblocked with much fanfare - meanwhile censorship of the Chinese language Internet (including the Chinese versions of those sites) continues the same as ever, and rest assured the net will be filtered as usual - at least the Chinese language content - for Chinese people accessing the Internet outside of the special press centers and major hotels. But the IOC doesn't notice the former and doesn't appear to care about the latter.

Are we actually surprised by any of this? Everyone is playing out their designated roles. And anybody who truly thought that the Olympics would change the Chinese government's human rights practices was smoking something really great. 

Responding to the reality wars that continue to rage online and in the media over what the recent Tibetan unrest was really about, Dave over at Mutantpalm produced early on the best characterization I've seen of this year's "SchizOlympics." I've quoted him before but it's so good I'll quote him again:

Watching the build up to the Olympics has been, for me, like watching the world’s biggest, slowest traffic accident. For a while now its been pretty obvious that alot of contentious issues about China were going to come to the front as we approach August 8th, but the problem is that there are two completely separate parallel worlds on these issues: the Chinese one, and the rest of us. Westerners have been exposed to rhetoric and information about Tibetan discontent, Darfur’s international and Chinese dimensions, and of course old chestnuts like Tiananmen provide a larger context of long term, ongoing problems. Meanwhile, Chinese mainlanders by and large have no knowledge of these events or issues. While for the rest of the world the Olympics will be largely a referendum on China’s ability to deal with what everyone else has talked about for years, for Chinese citizens it will be about China winning a beauty pageant of sorts.

Two Worlds, Two Dreams: prepare for the SchizOlympics.

There are a few Chinese and a few Westerners who are trying to quietly create spaces for rational conversation and information exchange. But it's hard for most people on all sides to get past the emotions, the nationalism, long-cherished ideological frameworks, stereotypes, over-generalizations, demonizations, cultural superiority complexes and longstanding national chips-on-the-shoulder. Lots of Chinese people now view the Western media, human rights groups, and Western leaders' criticisms of their country as part of the Racist Western Conspiracy to Stop China From Being Successful. Many Westerners continue to harbor a wishful missionary fantasy that the Chinese people must naturally welcome outsiders to help "save" them, and that all expressions of the opposite can only be the product of brainwashing and fear.  In my experience, the most unsuccessful way to win a person over to one's point of view is to start out by telling him he's brainwashed - second only in effectiveness to telling someone that she is part of a grand conspiracy. But this is how the conversation is currently going. Is this inevitable? Reading through the comment at the bottom of this recent post I wrote about the Tibet mess, I'm not optimistic.

Comments

[Charles Liu]

US citizen Chi Mak got 25 years, after AT&T helped US government in prosecuting him, after trumpped up espionage charge was thrown out and re-charged with cilvil offence like export control vioation, and political charge the he's an unregistered "foreign agent" - only because of his ancestry.

The same FARA law was levied against German Americans suspected of being unpatriotic "Nazi Collaborators."

While Chi Mak was only guilty of scholarly exchange of public domain presentations he gave during IEEE international conference in 2004 on things for building electric cars.

[mahathir_fan]

One word: Boycott the Olympics :)
It makes me happy :)

When it comes to Hu Jia, I have to demand that the Chinese government expose the real reason for his arrest. Is he a suspected foreign agent? If it is just about those few articles that he wrote, why were they so significant?

charles,
There is a difference. At least the US jails people with foreign names. China is jailing its own citizens, and last I checked, they kiss ass the foreigners. It seems like if Hu Jia was a foreigner, he would have gotten away. Remember those Canadian Tibetan protestors at the Great Wall who were promptly deported from China instead of being jailed and abused and gang raped in Chinese jails?
I want to see China jail more foreigners!!! Like the US!

[JojoChristine]

As a Chinese girl who really respect Tibetan and their culture, I'm really worried about the future of China, including Tibet. During this special year with growing economy of China, throe always gets along with progressive upheaval. If this crisis is not dealt with properly ,it maybe engenders infaust factors to steady change of China society, which maybe makes China become the next Latin America. Apparently, recessionary economy of China will aggravate global recessionary economy in this year. Actually, I think mature democracy and educated civil society is the ultima direction and trend where China will develop. However, China is on the transitional track where all kinds of social systems are still expected to improve and be steady. Just imagine that if mature democracy and educated civil society are the fertile soil in which the democratic seeds grow healthily, how can democratic seeds grow healthily in an immature democracy and developing civil society so as to gestate democratic fruitage? Otherwise, China will become the next queasy Philippines or Indonesia. However, I believe China is forming its fertile soil ----mature democracy and educated civil society.
Furthermore, if you know well about the background of China leaders, you will find that they are all idealists and patriots with devotional beliefs. Although they claim publicly that they are zendics, they behave themselves just like devotional Christians or Muslems. What’s different is that they believe in communism. Premier Wen jiabao graduated from Nankai School where ex- Premier Chou Enlai had ever studied. Like ex- Premier Chou Enlai, Premier Wen jiabao is loved and esteemed with Chinese because of his sincere emotion. What’s not forgotten is that both Premier Wen jiabao and the probable next Chinese president Xi Jingping were persecuted during the Culture Revolution when majority of Chinese suffered a lot. So I believe nowadays Chinese leaders don’t search for domineering empire at all which will result in backslide and pursue gradualism social reform so as to ensure stormy revolution don’t wash out the nutrient of the forming fertile soil----the latest economic and social fruitage might be destroyed. Thus , I believe China will develop into a mature democratic country where all respects of society are improved, which needs time. As for Tibet issue, it’s really an intractable problem. On one hand, it’s impossible for China to give up Tibet; on the other hand, the concept of two systems in one country may not apply for Tibet issue ,for Tibet issue has its complexity and particularity.
Finally, China is different from South Africa , for there don’t exist apartheid in China (which maybe most of occidentals wouldn’t approve of me). Carefully referring to Chinese laws, you’ll find that apartheid and ethnic discrimination are banned by law. However, ethnic estrangement exists to some degree because of ethnic personality. And Chinese leaders handle the ethnic issue with great care. And I think if China is wise enough , she must let foreign reporters into Tibet. Otherwise, China will lose the trust in the western world, which maybe has been a fact for a long time while China also don’t trust the west because of historic problem And what’s important is that foreign reporters should give up their prejudice ,stereotyping of China and ideology so as to ensure their viewpoints are objective.

[Jack]

@Charles

What, no love for Gregg W. Bergersen?

[clarke]

I'm not sure I agree with your pessimism. The Internet isn't the best place to take stock of Chinese opinion anyways, particularly from the mainland where institutionalized fear and violence prevail.

What are your students saying?

Even in places without a tyrannical CCP playing Big Brother the Internet rarely fosters "conversation". The ridiculous posturing as evidenced in the comments you cite seems to be baked into the cake.

As for the Olympics, the problem lies with the Chinese Communist Party...there's a huge pile-up in the making, as our friend Dave points out. When it comes to the games you can't say/do one thing within your borders and then tell the rest of the world something different.

The CCP is proving they can't handle the heat, that they don't deserve the responsibilities of hosting.

One tell-tale sign of a non-partisan organization is when both the CCP & the Bush administration accuse it of "bias". Amnesty International's report is spot on. Human rights are non-negotiable, they've got nothing to do with "long-cherished ideological frameworks". The CCP would certainly like them to be, of course, just as the Bush administration has tried and failed to turn climate change into an ideology.

In the end, both Tibet and Hu Jia will prevail. The CCP, as has been abundantly clear for too long, is history. The sooner their own citizens get it, the sooner they'll be respected beyond their own borders.

[mahathir_fan]

"And I think if China is wise enough , she must let foreign reporters into Tibet. Otherwise, China will lose the trust in the western world,"

I share your enthuthiasm, but past experience has shown that inviting Western media in is of no use. The Western media still continues on their bigot-ed way of reporting. The Western media must first shed off its bigotry for there to be constructive dialogue. Case in point: Tiananmen 89. There were lots of reporters in China in 89, yet they all reported 2000 people died on the square, about protestors crushed by tanks, yet those things never happened. See my video and rate it for evidence of my point: http://youtube.com/watch?v=SbX0gAk3zRA

Instead of inviting foreign media into Tibet, what is a better approach is for there to be more Chinese reporters of credible integrity. I am calling for organizations that mirrors that of AP and Reuters but of Chinese or Asian origins and that takes great care to prevent itself from being infiltrated by Western spies (don't be like Al_jazeera that has lost all its past glories) and also free of influence by Chinese government. Think Steven Gan's : Malaysiakini.

@clarke
". When it comes to the games you can't say/do one thing within your borders and then tell the rest of the world something different."

Where is the piece of paper that was signed by the Chinese government about its commitment to the Olympic games with regards to human rights?

Last I checked, it was the Western media that came up with this fictitious expectation. The Chinese government did promise5open reporting and access DURING THE GAMES. What date is it today? It is April 5, 2008. The Games does not start until August 8, 2008. When the internet is still censored on August 8, 2008, then you have a right to complain - o/w shut up. There is no committment to loosen any laws until August 8, 2008, and those loose laws will be valid for only 2 weeks. Get it?

I am not for CPC or against it. I am against some of its policies like censorship and jailing of dissidents of Chinese origins.

When they jail Hu Jia, yet they merely deported those Canadian Tibetan protestors, I am so disgusted. It should be the other way round. The Chinese government should treat its own dissidents nicely, and punish those foreign protestors - send them to the nastiest jails and have them gang raped by fellow inmates. I think they have no balls in this matter because they don't want to get into a diplomatic row. So yeah, if you are an American citizen, you can do all the protest you want in China and the worst that can happen is you get deported. You won't go to jail. This is not fair for people like Hu Jia.

Censorship is another point is bad. China should not censor, because access to the internet already exist a natural barrier. I was watching a documentary last night on how the English government forbid their people from translating the Bible from Latin to English in the 13th century. Because of increasing ignorance in the Latin language, more and more English Christians were unable to read the bible. This ignorance in the bible led the English people to be more and more dependent on the Roman pope. Yet, they outlawed any English translations of the Bible. But when the English translation was made available centuries later, it freed the people from the strangle hold of Rome.

Now, with censorship, more Chinese are only going to look to the West for their "alternative" news. This is dangerous.

All those good pro-China youtube videos have one thing in common, all made by Chinese living overseas. That should be good reason to not censor the net. We need more information soldiers to fight against bigoted Western propaganda!

Finally, do not trust Amnesty national. 20 years ago, they said Dr. Mahathir abuse his powers in Malaysia, through things like Operasai Lalang, or the Judicial Crisis of 1987 yet until today, Amnesty has yet to bring formal charges against our formal dictator. Why? Because their past accusations were baseless. I'm sure they said the same thing about Presdient Suharto as well, yet Suharto died last year a FREE man. So all they have been spewing out in the last 20 years about these South East Asian nations were lies. All I ever got from them are their smelly saliva. To prove their credibility, they need to go back and bring formal charges against our former dictators! Get them before their spirit is taken to heaven!

[Twofish]

mahatir_fan: When it comes to Hu Jia, I have to demand that the Chinese government expose the real reason for his arrest. Is he a suspected foreign agent?

No. Hua Jia was charged with subversion of state power on the grounds that he wrote several essays calling for the overthrow of the Communist Party. One significant thing is that the essay that he wrote on human rights and the Olympics was *not* used the basis of the charges.

mahatir_fan: If it is just about those few articles that he wrote, why were they so significant?

Because it was argued that he was trying to overthrow the government.

Personally I think it is silly to argue that freedom of speech in China is anywhere near the levels in the United States. But just because China is much more repressive than the US doesn't mean that I think it is a good idea to overthrow the government.

China has been through two revolutions in the last 100 years, each one leaving it worse than before. There's no reason to think that a third revolution is going to leave things much better off, so I'm willing to tolerant government repression given the lack of any better alternatives.

clarke: In the end, both Tibet and Hu Jia will prevail. The CCP, as has been abundantly clear for too long, is history.

Eventually the CCP will fall. Eventually the United States will collapse, mankind will become extinct, and the earth will fall into the sun.

People have been predicting the fall of the CCP since 1949. Maybe it will collapse tomorrow, but I wouldn't bet on it. The Communist Party right now probably has more popular support right now and a stronger hold on government than at anytime in its history.

One thing that I detest about Marxism is the idea that things are predestined to happen. My own belief is that history is not determined, and whether the CCP collapses next year or five hundred years from now is determined by the choices people including you and I make.

Personally, I've made some choices that I think will help prolong the life of the CCP.

[Twofish]

clarke: I'm not sure I agree with your pessimism. The Internet isn't the best place to take stock of Chinese opinion anyways, particularly from the mainland where institutionalized fear and violence prevail.

There has been lots of damage done in the world by people so sure about their ideology that they just couldn't accept that the world runs different than people think that it should.

One reason that I distrust "revolutionary democrats" is that they are so sure that people must be living in fear that they can't accept the possibility that a repressive, authoritarian government might actual have some genuine popular support, and that people who have some grudging support for the Communist Party (like me for example), might not be totally brainwashed and idiotic drones.

(Also, in case you bring out the if they are so popular why don't they have an election, the trouble with elections is that the CCP might be relatively popular now, but they might not be a year from now.)

It's been the same cycle. We are good they are evil. We come to power and destroy the evil ones. But things aren't perfect, we disagree among ourselves. There must be spies and saboteurs among us, and pretty soon you end up with "enemies of the people."

To me, real democracy means admitting that people you disagree with might actually have a point.

[mahathir_fan]

Charles,

Thanks again for the information on Chi Mak. I read it and it is very interesting. It is another Wen Ho Lee case but this time, I think because of lack of publicity and public outcry, he is serving jailtime. You are like the voice of the opposition and dissent on Rebecca's blogs.

Still, the US is jailing people with foreign names. I still have not seen China jailing people with foreign names. It seems like if you are an American or Canadian and you break Chinese laws in China, you will only get deported. Nothing more.

This is not fair to the Chinese people. We get arrested everywhere, in US or in China.

China needs to start arresting Americans like how Americans are arresting the Chinese.

Also, Chinese official news agency Xinhua is seldom involved in any American bashing propaganda compared to the American media which is always bashing up China. Chi Mak case could have been an excellent scapegoat to stir up anti-American sentiments in China but Xinhua doesn't even publish that story. This is sad. I'm sure if China arrested an American living in CHina, the American media would be all over the story.

My question is: Is China at war with America or not? It seems like Americans' answer to this question would be a yes, (China was rated as the 3rd enemy of US) not a real war but some sort of a cold war, but the Chinese answer to this is would be a No. By the actions of the Chinese government censoring the internet, I fear that the Chinese people do not realize that a war is being waged against them by the Americans. We must uncensor the internet so that more Chinese can have access to news like Chi Mak so that they can be mobilized or at least be prepared.

[Charles Liu]

Twofish, Hu Jia was subjected to some sort of "state secret" prosecution when he released some stuff to foreigners.

Same thing happened to US citizen Chi Mak here. We made AT&T bug his phone, prosecuted him on export exemption law when espionage charge fell apart due to proscutorial misconduct.

Oh yeah, and we tacked on FARA charge, law that was written during WWII to thorw vocal German Americans in jail.

Chi Mak got 25 years for scholarly exchange of IEEE presentation he gave in 2004.

That stuff is pulic domain, and remains on IEEE.org for anyone in China to download.

[richardlee]

I used to be baffled by our gov's decision. I used to think it is outrageous by putting Hujia into house arrest and under close watch. Definitely, it is infringement of human rights. Then i have been searching the real reason why Chinese gov is so irked by Hu Jia. just because of those articles? no way. many people did the same thing but they are not arrested, although harrassed.
Then i think i found the truth. He received funding from NED, a self-claimed "independent" but US-funed org, whose leaders admitted before CIA has a strong swing on them. Then I understand many whys": why could Hu Jia afford an apartment even he has no job, no income? (we all know housing price in Beijing is very high.)Why could he have his own car when most Chinese still can not afford a car and when he has no income at all? Why is the protest sign held by his wife in front of a car of state agents bilingual (Chinese and English)? (it is posted on the Youtube: the prisoner of freedom city).
so come on.Please don't treat me like a dupe. I am not easy to be brainwashed, either by CCP or western media. Either one just wants to tell us part of the story.
He received money from NED. well he has the freedom to do so. So it is quite understandable that his wife held a bilingual protest sign: for international audiences although her target was Chinese agents, who probably don't know any English words. He likes to be a tool of foreign force. That is his choice and freedom. But here's my opinion about the whole farce:
1 it is against Chinese morality to accept a foreign fund with foreign government background, especially CIA. China was bullied by foreign countries in the history. Don't be naive to think Foreign government would put Chinese people's interest on the first place.
2 although i can not forgive him morally, i don't think CCP has right to put him in jail. he did something against morality but not against law. So it is illegal to put him in jail.
3 i would fight for his freedom of speech, although i disagree on his pratice.
4 He is like a Fenqing, a chinese term for fanatic. He is influenced by some westerners.( I don;t like to use the word "brainwash") I feel sorry for him. I wish he can go smoothly in the future

[mahathir_fan]

" Sarkozy sets terms for Olympic attendance"
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/05/sarkozy.boycott/

This is awesome move! I hope more Western leaders will follow his foot steps. What I am hoping for is that with more of seats being vacated, China will finally make room for Castro and Chavez to come. Cuba and Venuzuela are the only true friends of China and I hope China sees this with this boycott.

[bandw]

although I think Hu Jia is a nutcase it's shameful that the government can even tolerate him.

[nanheyangrouchuan]

@Charles Liu:

"While Chi Mak was only guilty of scholarly exchange of public domain presentations he gave during IEEE international conference in 2004 on things for building electric cars."

1. Such an expert and you've never even been to China.

2. He was caught in possession of blueprints of classified material for new US destroyers and submarines specifically the "quiet electric drive". Hardly "electric car" material.

This Olympics was given to China purely for commercial purposes. Part of Corporate America's, Corporate Europe's, Corporate Japan's, Corporate Australia's and Corporate S. Korea's continued obsession with 1 billion slave laborers (white and blue collar) who would eventually become 1 billion consumers in a land where consumer protection, especially lawsuits, would be outlawed.

In some ways, China and the IOC is the worst of our society staring us back in the mirror.

[Jotman]

Hi Rebecca, you wrote: "Reading through the comment at the bottom of this recent post I wrote about the Tibet mess, I'm not optimistic."

I beg to differ. In the scheme of things, I think the comment you refer to amounts to mere "noise" and not a jot more. Participating in the discussion following your last post, I learned a lot from both Chinese and non-Chinese participants. Overall, the kind of discussion happening on your blog makes me more optimistic.

Above, Jojo Christine's remarks about the leadership are helpful to me, and her analysis of the situation show us cause to be hopeful.

[barnychan]

Mahathir Fan: "Remember those Canadian Tibetan protestors who were promptly deported from China instead of being jailed and abused and gang raped in Chinese jails?...punish those foreign protestors - send them to the nastiest jails and have them gang raped by fellow inmates. I think they have no balls"

Mahat Fan, your violent homoerotic fantasies bring to mind your hero's hot breathed and graphic accusations against Anwar. Interesting. Very, very interesting. I guess the only downside for you is that typing with one hand slows down your frenzied postings.

Twofish: "in case you bring out the if they are so popular why don't they have an election, the trouble with elections is that the CCP might be relatively popular now, but they might not be a year from now"

Priceless. Absolutely priceless. I couldn't have put it better myself.

"To me, real democracy means admitting that people you disagree with might actually have a point"

You could just as validly claim that real democracy means a tapdancing panda smeared in honey and then sprinkled with moondust. You might not support democracy in any of its guises but why attempt to strangely redefine it?

If anything there's more self-awareness in the posts of Mahathir Fan and his fervant allies. You appear to see no contradiction at all in presenting yourself as a rational and moderate voice while at the same time maintaining that "I'm willing to tolerant government repression given the lack of any better alternatives"? No better alternative to imprisoning a guy like Hu Jia? You live in a truly disturbing world if "government repression" is the attractive choice.

Rebecca Mac: "In my experience, the most unsuccessful way to win a person over to one's point of view is to start out by telling him he's brainwashed - second only in effectiveness to telling someone that she is part of a grand conspiracy. But this is how the conversation is currently going. Is this inevitable? Reading through the comment at the bottom of this recent post I wrote about the Tibet mess, I'm not optimistic."

Right now there is an inevitability to this gulf, so in the short term your pessimism is justified. However, there is potential common ground between the two sides (in reality there are way more than two "sides" to this), it's just that the current climate obscures this. The world economy is in such a volatile and potentially catastrophic state that the entire landscape could end up looking radically different in a very compressed timescale. Let the Olympics pass, let the nationalistic fervor subside, let the people of both the west and China quietly discover that their lives are inextricably linked, and then just hope for the best...

[mahathir_fan]

"Twofish: "in case you bring out the if they are so popular why don't they have an election, the trouble with elections is that the CCP might be relatively popular now, but they might not be a year from now"

Priceless. Absolutely priceless. I couldn't have put it better myself."

Can you 2 please go and do some research before you write something like this? China holds elections every 5 years. CIA world factbook:

Legislative branch:
elections: last held December 2007-February 2008; (2,987 seats; members elected by municipal, regional, and provincial people's congresses, and People's Liberation Army to serve five-year terms)

( I am only quoting from a Western source because if I quote from Chinese sources, you gonna say its just propaganda)

But if you want Chinese sources, it is in the constitution, Article 34:

Article 34. All citizens of the People's Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, sex, occupation, family background...

Anyone in China can run for election. It is the world's largest Democracy. What you cannot do, and what you normally read in the press that tries to discredit this fact are related to people who attempted to start NEW political parties that attempts to subvert the socialist system.

[mahathir_fan]

"Then i think i found the truth. He (Hu Jia) received funding from NED, a self-claimed "independent" but US-funed org, "

Thanks. Hu Jia just lost all my sympathy. Maybe his friends can give him a Green Card or something. What? They avoiding him now?

[mahathir_fan]

"This Olympics was given to China purely for commercial purposes. Part of Corporate America's, Corporate Europe's, Corporate Japan's, Corporate Australia's and Corporate S. Korea's continued obsession with 1 billion slave laborers (white and blue collar) who would eventually become 1 billion consumers in a land where consumer protection, especially lawsuits, would be outlawed.

In some ways, China and the IOC is the worst of our society staring us back in the mirror."

That is so true. Who are you? Have we chatted? We have a lot in common.

According to Marx, their next agenda is to pit the workers of one country against another, meaning like Chinese people against American people etc. etc. which is why Marx called for "Workers of the world UNITE".

Right now, I'm just hoping for some real actions on the Olympic boycott but so far they are just tease, I know its not going to come. Maybe 1 or 2 will boycott, but not the entire gang.

Aside from that, its kind of fun to watch the torch relays now, with all these torch snatching going on :).

I just hope no one gets hurt and its all in good fun. Torch snatching is bad, but still better than rioting. Did you read about the guy from the pro-China protest who struck up a conversation with this pro-Tibet chick at Trafalgar Square? I think its bringing people together.

[Twofish]

Liu: Twofish, Hu Jia was subjected to some sort of "state secret" prosecution when he released some stuff to foreigners.

He may have been investigated for state secrets, but that wasn't part of the formal charges. There is a provision in "state subversion" that provides for extra penalties if done in cooperation with foreigners, but that provision was not used.

barnychan: You might not support democracy in any of its guises but why attempt to strangely redefine it?

It's not a matter of redefining it. It's a matter of defining it in the first place. It's pretty clear that different people mean totally different things when they say "democracy." For me, it means constitutional government which means that sometimes the majority doesn't get what it wants.

barnychan: No better alternative to imprisoning a guy like Hu Jia? You live in a truly disturbing world if "government repression" is the attractive choice.

The world is disturbing....

If you have a magic wand that creates a multi-party liberal democracy, then sure, I'd be for it. The trouble is that political magic wands don't exist, and if you aren't careful at how you end a repressive regime, you end up with something like Iraq.

Good government is a tricky balance between tyranny and anarchy. It's very easy to get the balance wrong and in the process of opposing tyranny, you end up with anarchy.

The problem with the United States is that the system works *too* well, and people don't realize the hundreds of years of battles and compromises that got the US to the system it has now. Since it looks easy, people assume that you can wave a magic wand and have a government that seems like the US, when in fact you can't. That should be the lesson of Iraq.

[Twofish]

mahatir_fan: Anyone in China can run for election. It is the world's largest Democracy.

But because of the multi-level nature of elections, there is no effective party competition at the national level.

Also part of the reason I state my definition for democracy is that I don't think that the PRC is a democracy.

[Charles Liu]

@Twofish re "tack on charge"

That's exactely what happened to Chi Mak with FARA, and he got 25 years.

Chi Mak was never charged with espionage, because that charge fell apart due to prosecutorial misconduct. LA Times reported the supposed "blueprint" was direction to the hotel near Knolls Lab on a job visit.

Just so I'm not talking smack, here's the charging paper:

http://www.4law.co.il/fbicn5.pdf

The titles of public domain presentations Chi Mak et al gave at IEEE conference are listed in the charging paper, they can be Googled very easily.

And these PUBLIC DOMAIN literature can be downloaded by anyone with a credit card in China.

[Twofish]

I once had a chat with Carl Gershman, the head of the National Endowment for Democracy. Nice guy, very well-meaning.

Totally clueless unfortunately, and I left the chat thinking that with someone like him in charge of US democracy efforts 1) the Chinese government has nothing to worry about and 2) anyone that really wants to see democracy in China does.

His bright idea was that you take all of the anti-Communist groups (i.e. Tibetan nationalists, Uighur nationalists, Taiwan independence, and Chinese overseas exiles) together talking with each other to try to put pressure on the Chinese government. The point I was making to him was that this was extremely "unwise" (I was polite enough to avoid using the word *freaking stupid*) since by putting all of these groups together you are going to end up with a nationalistic backlash that is going to increase support for the CCP and political repression far beyond would it otherwise would have been.

Also, I asked him what the plan was assuming that he was successful and the Communist Party does fall, and he had no idea.

Personal I think that Carl Gershman is extremely dangerous, not because he has this secret plot to destroy China. Quite the opposite, he is a nice, well-meaning person that has no idea what he is really doing.

A four year old with a machine gun is infinite more dangerous than a hired assassin.

[barnychan]

Twofish: "It's pretty clear that different people mean totally different things when they say "democracy.""

I acknowledged that "democracy" can come in different forms, but that doesn't alter the fact that my tapdancing panda is as (in)accurate a definition of "real democracy" as "admitting that people you disagree with might actually have a point".

"The world is disturbing...."

Particularly for Hu Jia and his family.

"Good government is a tricky balance between tyranny and anarchy."

So you think that the tyranny of imprisonment is preferable to the "anarchy" of allowing the small and gentle voice of Hu Jia to be heard? Tyranny versus Anarchy. Harmony versus Chaos. Good versus Evil. Black versus White. East versus West. I guess nuance isn't really your thing.

"It's very easy to get the balance wrong and in the process of opposing tyranny, you end up with anarchy"

Given the choice I'd take anarchy over tyranny...

[mahathir_fan]

"I guess the only downside for you is that typing with one hand slows down your frenzied postings."

Whoa..sorry, I never went to university so I don't know how to type like you. I just type with my index fingers.