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April 03, 2008

Comments

richardlee

I used to be baffled by our gov's decision. I used to think it is outrageous by putting Hujia into house arrest and under close watch. Definitely, it is infringement of human rights. Then i have been searching the real reason why Chinese gov is so irked by Hu Jia. just because of those articles? no way. many people did the same thing but they are not arrested, although harrassed.
Then i think i found the truth. He received funding from NED, a self-claimed "independent" but US-funed org, whose leaders admitted before CIA has a strong swing on them. Then I understand many whys": why could Hu Jia afford an apartment even he has no job, no income? (we all know housing price in Beijing is very high.)Why could he have his own car when most Chinese still can not afford a car and when he has no income at all? Why is the protest sign held by his wife in front of a car of state agents bilingual (Chinese and English)? (it is posted on the Youtube: the prisoner of freedom city).
so come on.Please don't treat me like a dupe. I am not easy to be brainwashed, either by CCP or western media. Either one just wants to tell us part of the story.
He received money from NED. well he has the freedom to do so. So it is quite understandable that his wife held a bilingual protest sign: for international audiences although her target was Chinese agents, who probably don't know any English words. He likes to be a tool of foreign force. That is his choice and freedom. But here's my opinion about the whole farce:
1 it is against Chinese morality to accept a foreign fund with foreign government background, especially CIA. China was bullied by foreign countries in the history. Don't be naive to think Foreign government would put Chinese people's interest on the first place.
2 although i can not forgive him morally, i don't think CCP has right to put him in jail. he did something against morality but not against law. So it is illegal to put him in jail.
3 i would fight for his freedom of speech, although i disagree on his pratice.
4 He is like a Fenqing, a chinese term for fanatic. He is influenced by some westerners.( I don;t like to use the word "brainwash") I feel sorry for him. I wish he can go smoothly in the future

mahathir_fan

" Sarkozy sets terms for Olympic attendance"
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/05/sarkozy.boycott/

This is awesome move! I hope more Western leaders will follow his foot steps. What I am hoping for is that with more of seats being vacated, China will finally make room for Castro and Chavez to come. Cuba and Venuzuela are the only true friends of China and I hope China sees this with this boycott.

bandw

although I think Hu Jia is a nutcase it's shameful that the government can even tolerate him.

nanheyangrouchuan

@Charles Liu:

"While Chi Mak was only guilty of scholarly exchange of public domain presentations he gave during IEEE international conference in 2004 on things for building electric cars."

1. Such an expert and you've never even been to China.

2. He was caught in possession of blueprints of classified material for new US destroyers and submarines specifically the "quiet electric drive". Hardly "electric car" material.


This Olympics was given to China purely for commercial purposes. Part of Corporate America's, Corporate Europe's, Corporate Japan's, Corporate Australia's and Corporate S. Korea's continued obsession with 1 billion slave laborers (white and blue collar) who would eventually become 1 billion consumers in a land where consumer protection, especially lawsuits, would be outlawed.

In some ways, China and the IOC is the worst of our society staring us back in the mirror.

Jotman

Hi Rebecca, you wrote: "Reading through the comment at the bottom of this recent post I wrote about the Tibet mess, I'm not optimistic."

I beg to differ. In the scheme of things, I think the comment you refer to amounts to mere "noise" and not a jot more. Participating in the discussion following your last post, I learned a lot from both Chinese and non-Chinese participants. Overall, the kind of discussion happening on your blog makes me more optimistic.

Above, Jojo Christine's remarks about the leadership are helpful to me, and her analysis of the situation show us cause to be hopeful.

barnychan

Mahathir Fan: "Remember those Canadian Tibetan protestors who were promptly deported from China instead of being jailed and abused and gang raped in Chinese jails?...punish those foreign protestors - send them to the nastiest jails and have them gang raped by fellow inmates. I think they have no balls"

Mahat Fan, your violent homoerotic fantasies bring to mind your hero's hot breathed and graphic accusations against Anwar. Interesting. Very, very interesting. I guess the only downside for you is that typing with one hand slows down your frenzied postings.

Twofish: "in case you bring out the if they are so popular why don't they have an election, the trouble with elections is that the CCP might be relatively popular now, but they might not be a year from now"

Priceless. Absolutely priceless. I couldn't have put it better myself.

"To me, real democracy means admitting that people you disagree with might actually have a point"

You could just as validly claim that real democracy means a tapdancing panda smeared in honey and then sprinkled with moondust. You might not support democracy in any of its guises but why attempt to strangely redefine it?

If anything there's more self-awareness in the posts of Mahathir Fan and his fervant allies. You appear to see no contradiction at all in presenting yourself as a rational and moderate voice while at the same time maintaining that "I'm willing to tolerant government repression given the lack of any better alternatives"? No better alternative to imprisoning a guy like Hu Jia? You live in a truly disturbing world if "government repression" is the attractive choice.

Rebecca Mac: "In my experience, the most unsuccessful way to win a person over to one's point of view is to start out by telling him he's brainwashed - second only in effectiveness to telling someone that she is part of a grand conspiracy. But this is how the conversation is currently going. Is this inevitable? Reading through the comment at the bottom of this recent post I wrote about the Tibet mess, I'm not optimistic."

Right now there is an inevitability to this gulf, so in the short term your pessimism is justified. However, there is potential common ground between the two sides (in reality there are way more than two "sides" to this), it's just that the current climate obscures this. The world economy is in such a volatile and potentially catastrophic state that the entire landscape could end up looking radically different in a very compressed timescale. Let the Olympics pass, let the nationalistic fervor subside, let the people of both the west and China quietly discover that their lives are inextricably linked, and then just hope for the best...

mahathir_fan

"Twofish: "in case you bring out the if they are so popular why don't they have an election, the trouble with elections is that the CCP might be relatively popular now, but they might not be a year from now"

Priceless. Absolutely priceless. I couldn't have put it better myself."


Can you 2 please go and do some research before you write something like this? China holds elections every 5 years. CIA world factbook:

Legislative branch:
elections: last held December 2007-February 2008; (2,987 seats; members elected by municipal, regional, and provincial people's congresses, and People's Liberation Army to serve five-year terms)


( I am only quoting from a Western source because if I quote from Chinese sources, you gonna say its just propaganda)

But if you want Chinese sources, it is in the constitution, Article 34:

Article 34. All citizens of the People's Republic of China who have reached the age of 18 have the right to vote and stand for election, regardless of nationality, race, sex, occupation, family background...

Anyone in China can run for election. It is the world's largest Democracy. What you cannot do, and what you normally read in the press that tries to discredit this fact are related to people who attempted to start NEW political parties that attempts to subvert the socialist system.

mahathir_fan

"Then i think i found the truth. He (Hu Jia) received funding from NED, a self-claimed "independent" but US-funed org, "

Thanks. Hu Jia just lost all my sympathy. Maybe his friends can give him a Green Card or something. What? They avoiding him now?

mahathir_fan

"This Olympics was given to China purely for commercial purposes. Part of Corporate America's, Corporate Europe's, Corporate Japan's, Corporate Australia's and Corporate S. Korea's continued obsession with 1 billion slave laborers (white and blue collar) who would eventually become 1 billion consumers in a land where consumer protection, especially lawsuits, would be outlawed.

In some ways, China and the IOC is the worst of our society staring us back in the mirror."

That is so true. Who are you? Have we chatted? We have a lot in common.

According to Marx, their next agenda is to pit the workers of one country against another, meaning like Chinese people against American people etc. etc. which is why Marx called for "Workers of the world UNITE".

Right now, I'm just hoping for some real actions on the Olympic boycott but so far they are just tease, I know its not going to come. Maybe 1 or 2 will boycott, but not the entire gang.

Aside from that, its kind of fun to watch the torch relays now, with all these torch snatching going on :).

I just hope no one gets hurt and its all in good fun. Torch snatching is bad, but still better than rioting. Did you read about the guy from the pro-China protest who struck up a conversation with this pro-Tibet chick at Trafalgar Square? I think its bringing people together.

Twofish

Liu: Twofish, Hu Jia was subjected to some sort of "state secret" prosecution when he released some stuff to foreigners.

He may have been investigated for state secrets, but that wasn't part of the formal charges. There is a provision in "state subversion" that provides for extra penalties if done in cooperation with foreigners, but that provision was not used.

barnychan: You might not support democracy in any of its guises but why attempt to strangely redefine it?

It's not a matter of redefining it. It's a matter of defining it in the first place. It's pretty clear that different people mean totally different things when they say "democracy." For me, it means constitutional government which means that sometimes the majority doesn't get what it wants.

barnychan: No better alternative to imprisoning a guy like Hu Jia? You live in a truly disturbing world if "government repression" is the attractive choice.

The world is disturbing....

If you have a magic wand that creates a multi-party liberal democracy, then sure, I'd be for it. The trouble is that political magic wands don't exist, and if you aren't careful at how you end a repressive regime, you end up with something like Iraq.

Good government is a tricky balance between tyranny and anarchy. It's very easy to get the balance wrong and in the process of opposing tyranny, you end up with anarchy.

The problem with the United States is that the system works *too* well, and people don't realize the hundreds of years of battles and compromises that got the US to the system it has now. Since it looks easy, people assume that you can wave a magic wand and have a government that seems like the US, when in fact you can't. That should be the lesson of Iraq.

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